Post New Topic  
Edit Profile | Register | Search | FAQ | Forum Home
    next newest topic
»  The War Diary   » The Combat and Supporting Arms   » Infantry   » Why whine about winches when you can rappel?

Email this page to someone    
Author Topic: Why whine about winches when you can rappel?
Veteran Member
Member # 107

Member Rated:

posted 31 October 2021 15:59     Profile for bossi   Author's Homepage   Email bossi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Pardon me, but my carpenter father always taught me "it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools".

In this instance, I can only snort in derision at the suggestion a "better" winch is the only solution (whereas my personal opinion is proper training, technique and personnel might provide even "better" results - "thinking outside the box", wouldn't it have been even faster to rappel? And, for that matter, why send a bunch of swabbies to board a ship - other countries are quite comfortable giving this task to "marines" vice sailors ... or, heaven forbid, maritime infantry ... ?)

Come on - let's get real. I acknowledge the fact that close quarters combat on board a ship is not something our infantry currently practices. However, I am dubious about the naval contention that a rag-tag bunch of stewards, supply techs, etc., could fight better than infantry (similarly trained in boarding). Please note, I am limiting my discussion solely to the combat task of boarding.

I've previously speculated upon the utility of posting an infantry section aboard our ships - it would certainly break up the monotony of conventional army activities, volunteers could get a chance to experience navy life, and the logic is borne out by the employment of marines or naval infantry by other countries.

Okay - that's my personal opinion - I feel better for having vented.
Now it's your turn to fire away:

Sea King endangered Katie troops
Obsolete hoist caused 'unacceptable' delays while boarding ship, military report says
Douglas Quan
The Ottawa Citizen; with files from Canadian Press

Chris Mikula, The Ottawa Citizen / Obsolete hoists aboard Canada's Sea King helicopters meant navy crewmen spent an 'unacceptable' amount of time dangling in the air waiting to board the GTS Katie, a navy incident report says.

Members of the Canadian naval crew that stormed the GTS Katie last summer were left dangling above the vessel for an "unacceptably long period" of time, according to a military report written after the risky operation.

The report blames the slow-moving hoist used on all Sea King helicopters for putting the 14-member boarding party in a highly vulnerable situation.

The findings are contained in a standard post-deployment report, under a section titled Lessons Learned: How We Can Do Things Better. The report, which was produced by 12 Wing Shearwater in Nova Scotia, was obtained by Canadian Press through the Access to Information Act.

Last night, the commander in charge of Canada's fleet of 29 aging Sea Kings acknowledged that, with newer equipment, Operation Megaphone could have been completed much more efficiently.

"It means that the aircraft has to remain over the deck for a longer time," said Cpl. Brian Akitt, referring to the obsolete hoists. It does put the people at risk for a greater period."

The Aug. 3 boarding operation off Newfoundland took about 45 minutes. Had the Sea King been outfitted with newer hoists, officials estimate the mission could have been completed three times more quickly -- in about 10 to 15 minutes.

To make things worse, one of the Sea Kings aboard the Athabaskan broke down forcing the other Sea King to make two separate trips, lowering seven men each time.

The GTS Katie -- carrying over $200 million worth of army equipment from Kosovo and three Canadian Forces personnel -- was at the center of a messy dispute between the ship's American owners and a charter company in July.

After failing to broker a resolution between the main contractor, SDV Logistics Canada Ltd. of Montreal, and Andromeda Navigation Co. also of Montreal, and Third Ocean Marine Navigation Co. of Maryland, Defence Minister Art Eggleton ordered the navy to take over the ship.

The HMCS Montreal and HMCS Athabaskan stationed themselves on either side of the Katie. Over the course of 45 tense minutes, 14 armed navy personnel were lowered onto the Katie from a Sea King that hovered five storeys above the vessel's deck.

At a post-operation briefing that day, the defence minister and military officials gave a glowing account of the mission.

Mr. Eggleton told reporters that the Sea Kings were "working fine." Walter Natynczyk, director of joint operations, said the Sea King performed "exceptionally well." And Drew Robertson, the captain of the Athabaskan, said the operation was "quickly and smoothly done."

There were other problems besides the hoist, according to the post-deployment report. For one, the navy personnel were forced to crouch on the floor of the Sea King because of a lack of seats. When the helicopter flew from its Shearwater base to the Athabaskan, it experienced mechanical problems. It broke down upon completion of the mission.

Cpl. Akitt said last night that the entire fleet of Sea Kings should be retrofitted with newer hoists by the end of 2002. The new hoists, similar to the ones used on Labrador helicopters, use 75-metre cables, 40 metres longer than the cables used on existing Sea Kings.

The federal government has said that it will begin to replace the aging Sea Kings in 2005.

Earlier this summer, following an embarrassing series of breakdowns of Canadian Forces helicopters, Canadian Alliance Defence critic Art Hanger urged the government to stop playing "political football," and to devise a long-term strategy for its military.

"When it comes to helicopters and this government, they've embarrassed themselves and this country far too many times," he said.

Canada's Sea Kings need 30 hours of maintenance for every hour that they're in the air.

Of Canada's original fleet of 41 Sea Kings, 11 were destroyed in crashes between 1967 and 1994. One was written off in 1993, then rebuilt and restored to service, only to crash and burn in 1994. The crashes have killed seven airmen.

"At 37 years old, (the Sea King) is showing its age," said Cpl. Akitt. "It's a challenge, but we're managing to meet our bottom line."

Posts: 209 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000
Veteran Member
Member # 107

Member Rated:

posted 31 October 2021 16:02     Profile for bossi   Author's Homepage   Email bossi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
P.S. (I forgot to include: I do, however, acknowledge the usefulness of a winch when it's time to depart the boarded ship. However, I still wonder whether rappelling mightn't be faster for boarding ... ?)
Posts: 209 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000
Veteran Member
Member # 46

Member Rated:

posted 31 October 2021 18:14     Profile for JRMACDONALD   Author's Homepage   Email JRMACDONALD     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Re- Infantry Vs Sailors for boarding party--a moot point, as I would hazard a guess, about 99% of boardings occur against civilian/unarmed vessels.( any fact/ figures out there? I will stand corrected.) The exception might be drug runners, who tend not to stomach a firefight.
Re- rappelling vs winch-- "fastroping, anyone?" ( maybe the swabbies don't want to get dropped in the ocean!)

Posts: 92 | From: CALGARY,AB, CANADA | Registered: Aug 2000
Master Blaster
Veteran Member
Member # 60

Member Rated:

posted 01 November 2021 15:58     Profile for Master Blaster   Author's Homepage   Email Master Blaster     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The idea of fastroping off a SeaKing is like wreck diving from a submarine...both have their advantages but way too may shortcomings.

Mr. Bossi; I believe that you have had the opportunity to fast rope to solid ground from a helicopter. Given the really bad habit of the inability for the pilot to ensure that the chopper remain 'exactly' at the given altitude, how would you like to compound it with a heaving deck on a mild ocean swell? Has been done (Royal Marines), will be done (anyone else as crazy as the Royal Marines, SBS, etc.). I do not refute your idea of a more rapid deployment of boarding parties on naval vessels to the decks of less than nuetral ships but I believe that their are other alternatives that employ fewer risks to the boarding party.

Regarding your idea of employing infantry on board ships...the Infantry can barely get along with itself; how do you expect them to fare with the Navy? The navy employs all types of personel on board ships in Canada but none are as deranged, demented, twisted or down-right dangerous as an infantryman that would willingly volunteer for duty on a naval vessel (at sea of all places!!). Go give yourself 10 lashes and return to the Captains Deck for a list of your punishments!!

All the Best

Dileas Gu Brath

Posts: 44 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
the patriot
Member # 144

Member Rated:

posted 13 November 2021 11:18     Profile for the patriot   Author's Homepage   Email the patriot     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Or they could contract out the Cirque du Soleil circus troop to rappel from helicopters for us. Seems to be the trend these days...

-the patriot-

Posts: 175 | From: The Great White North | Registered: Jun 2000

All times are ET  

Post New Topic   Close Topic    Move Topic      next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | | Privacy Statement

� 2001 All Rights Reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.04d

See the History section for books on the Canadian Military.