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Author Topic: when is the line crossed?
ender
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posted 28 February 2021 20:58      Profile for ender   Email ender   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McG asked me to post a new topic about an incident which occured on my QL2 (last year)

While on the 13k march, a master corpral was encouraging a candidate. Said candidate got sick of the Mcpl talking to her, and told him to shut the f*** up. The only disiplinary action that was taken was that she did fire picket for part of the course party.

I really think a line was crossed there. There are some things you shouldn't be able to get away with. On this course, the instructers were not allowed to assign push-ups because ''PT is not to be used as a disiplinary tool". I really think that this is crap, and doesn't prepare anyone for future course (ie. QL3 in Gagetown) or anything in the army.

Another thing that concerns me is a person without functional english skills who managed to pass recruiting and QL3. It isn't clear whether this person doesn't understand orders, or deliberatly disobeys them. This person is a danger to everyone, especially when working with explosives/live ammunition.

I do think that if someone screws up accidently, they should be given a second chance.

But some people do these things repeatedly and out of thier own will. So when is the line crossed, and what can be done about it if it is.


Posts: 130 | From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
jonezr
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posted 01 March 2021 23:36      Profile for jonezr   Email jonezr   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not going to atttempt to try and argue where that line ought to be but this "soldier" and I am not sure if they deserve that title obviously crossed it.

The backbone of the military is discipline especially at that level. This soldier has barely begun her career and already she is learning some bad lessons. If this person finds the situation that they were in stressfull what will happen when the are placed in a high stress envirement when others lives are in their hands. Is this the kind of soldier you want backing you up.

The tendency in this instance would be to blame the candidate however I think the real blame for this instance lies with the person who is conducting the trg. The words " Never pass a fault" may ring a bell with some. Weather it was the Mcpl or someone higher in the chain of command who let this slip buy it is obvious that there are some serious problems in the trg system.

Those in the trg system owe it to those at the pointy end that the soldiers that graduate from their course's are fit to do the job they were trained to do. We can only whine about political correctness ruining the army so much. There are ways within the currant system to have dealt with this incident. If an instructor is not prepared to do their part its time for them to move on. If their chain of command won't let them do their job its time to take a stand.


Posts: 7 | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
ender
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posted 02 March 2021 10:27      Profile for ender   Email ender   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think you're right.
In this case the fault seems to lie with our slack and idle QL2 course. You can't learn something if you arn't taught it.

Posts: 130 | From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yard Ape
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posted 02 March 2021 12:04      Profile for Yard Ape   Email Yard Ape   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unfortunatly, the army spends so much time telling us what we cannot do (for the sake of PR, PC, etc), and forgets to tell us what to do. This leaves many in the chain of command affraid to allow and many instructors affraid to conduct proper corrective actions. Fortunatly,those who are affraid are in the minority, and the good leaders and instructors can take approprait steps to properly ensure that the individual in question never makes the same mistake again.

This action need not be made a public spectacle, so some may not be fully aware of the consequences faced by the mischivious.

Yard Ape


Posts: 173 | From: Northern Ontario | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
reg1
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posted 04 March 2021 14:07      Profile for reg1   Email reg1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hi this is reg1: your all right, when i went through basic training (reg.)back in the 70s & 80s (the old school if you will) i seen many youg lads become great soldiers, and i will tell you that it was not easy. when we were punished it was 50 pushups and 10 laps around the parade square holding a 10_20lb bar over your head.during inspections of the barracks beds were terfed out the windows along with your boots, and you spent houres polishing the brass, thats only some things that we did, and ofcours we did not like it but at the end we trusted each other and covered each others backs. it made me stronger in many ways. ubique



Posts: 30 | From: st.wilfred newbrunswick canada | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
RCA
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posted 05 March 2021 14:13      Profile for RCA     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What are we missing here. Insurbodination is insobordination and no amount of "political correctness" changes that. The MCpl had two choices right there and then. Play pokey chest to impress on the candadate that he will not tolerate her s*** or if he doesn't have the balls for that indicate that he will be taking displinary action. I beleve that Crse O and insructors like to blame the system because thay can't disicpline candidates but that isn't so. At WATC in Shilo if this incident had happened guarentee that "soldier" would have been doing the two-steep in front of the BC. (candaidates are charged with having dirty weapons) So it is not the syetem it is the chickens***s would are scared of srewing their career.

And again lets no confuse discpline with punishment.


Ubique


Posts: 195 | From: Army of the West | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
McG
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posted 05 March 2021 23:05      Profile for McG   Email McG   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you, RCA, for the voice of reason. There are ways within the system to deal with such behavior. For the situation described above I would expect both the imediat, and follow-up administrative disciplinary actions be taken. That means an on the spot blast from the MCpl and some level of counseling (these vary from school to school) or charges.

The old chicken**** of tossing beds and kit out windows is not the most productive path to developing new soldiers but niether is instructors hiding "in their shells" while candidates run wild. Our system finds the middle ground and if course staff cannot find it, they should not be in their positions.


Chimo!


Posts: 154 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged

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