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Author Topic: Disband Regimental Affiliations?!!!
the patriot
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posted 27 January 2021 11:45      Profile for the patriot   Author's Homepage   Email the patriot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hello All,

Knowing how over zealous our bureaucrats in Ottawa are, does anyone foresee the day that we will have our regimental system stripped from the infantry in favour of a generic "no-name brand" system to indicate our units? For example, instead of 1 RCR, 2 RCR, and 1 PPCLI, 2 PPCLI. We would have 1 CAI (Canadian Army Infantry), 2 CAI, 3 CAI, and 4 CAI. As rediculous as this seems, things seem to moving more towards the Americanization of the Canadian Army.

-the patriot-


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JRMACDONALD
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posted 27 January 2021 19:00      Profile for JRMACDONALD   Email JRMACDONALD   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is an old "trial Ballon" that has been aboutfor at least, 25-30 years. Given that the current deployment of troops is based on Btl Grp/ Cbt TM, it makes sense. Again, more politically driven expediency rather than military driven effectiveness being bandied about.
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McG
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posted 28 January 2021 12:52      Profile for McG   Email McG   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The funny thing on this topic is, i recall an American telling me how they were naming their div's and Bde's after famous generals, in an attempt to make their system more regimental. The hope was to foster a regimental family within each Bde. perhapse some one out there knows how this experiment is working for them?
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Michael Dorosh
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posted 29 January 2021 02:21      Profile for Michael Dorosh   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Dorosh   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is this not what the Aussies have done? I can't get a straight answer from anyone on whether they have or haven't - not even from their official Army website.
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RCA
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posted 29 January 2021 10:24      Profile for RCA     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Asd far as I know the Aussies never had named regiments, just numbered battalions of number regiments ie 6/5 Ausralian Regiment. .

As to going to generic infantry (and I assume armoured) Regiments and I can't see it. It is not cost effective and by changing you are not gaining anything. Besides that, those that try we eventually give up as they will find it not worth the hassle.

------------------
Ubique


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Michael Dorosh
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posted 29 January 2021 21:57      Profile for Michael Dorosh   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Dorosh   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RCA:
Asd far as I know the Aussies never had named regiments, just numbered battalions of number regiments ie 6/5 Ausralian Regiment. .


?????????????

When I was on loan to the Scottish Division in 1990, I served alongside men from the Royal New South Wales Regiment (RNSWR), The Royal Queensland Regiment, the Royal South Australia Regiment, the Royal Victoria Regiment, and the Royal Western Australia Regiment and I believe the Royal Australian Regiment (RAR). I believe the RAR was regular and the others were territorial but I could be wrong.

The Byron Scottish at one time were affiliated with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

I have never heard of such a thing as "The Australia Regiment."

My question still stands - when did the Aussies change from the regimental system - or have they?


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McG
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posted 29 January 2021 23:05      Profile for McG   Email McG   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Aussies still have a regimental system. I remembered that the PPCLI had an affiliation w/the RAR. If you look up the PPCLI website and follow the history link it will take you to were you can look up the RAR. They still exsist.
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McG
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posted 29 January 2021 23:20      Profile for McG   Email McG   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Foreign military links on this site also point to a few Australian regiments.
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Michael Dorosh
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posted 29 January 2021 23:32      Profile for Michael Dorosh   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Dorosh   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is what I am trying to say - I thought the Aussies now have a system where the only regiment they have is the Royal Australian Regiment. There are exactly three links on the foreign units page - one for indigenous Australian units which I couldn't open, one for the Australian Army which didn't seem to have info on regiments, and one for an armoured regiment which would be irrelevant to the discussion.

Quite vexing!


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Michael Dorosh
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posted 29 January 2021 23:39      Profile for Michael Dorosh   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Dorosh   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Tried a couple of links from the 10th Light Horse page - neither one worked. One for the Austrailian Land Command site (sounded promising, sigh) and one for "49th Battalion, Royal Queensland Regiment"

I suspect even more strongly now that the RAR is the regular force component and quite probable that the territorials still have titles like RQR, above. It wouldn't be much different from us having only three regular regiments, and dozens of militia ones.

If anyone runs across anything definite, I would love to hear about it.


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McG
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posted 30 January 2021 00:08      Profile for McG   Email McG   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://regiments.org/milhist/australia/aargts.htm
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Michael Dorosh
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posted 30 January 2021 01:44      Profile for Michael Dorosh   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Dorosh   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by McG:
http://regiments.org/milhist/australia/aargts.htm

Sheesh, why didn' t I think of that? Good work - and thanks!


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Yard Ape
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posted 05 February 2021 10:24      Profile for Yard Ape   Email Yard Ape   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't worry all. Politics will actually save us here.

Yard Ape


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Gordon Angus Mackinlay
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posted 29 June 2021 03:52      Profile for Gordon Angus Mackinlay   Email Gordon Angus Mackinlay   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Since I joined this most interesting discussion list a few weeks ago I have (when I have time) pottered throught the various listings. In regard to this one, which has had a fair bit of discussion re the Australian Army I though I would put in my five bob worth.

The Australian Defence Force web sites are pretty pathetic in regard to actually telling you what the ADF is composed of. They are very informative re multiculturalisim,gender awareness, sexual orientation, and the other 'normalities' that modern govenment systems like.

The Royal Australian Corps of Infantry consists of:
Full time soldiers (not allowed to use the term Regular because it is denegrading to Reservists, univesally disliked), and Part Time soldiers (Reservists, of various types)
Full Time Units being
1. The Royal Australian Regiment (RAR):
a. 1st Bn, Lt Inf
b. 2nd Bn, Lt Inf.
c. 3rd (Parachute) Bn, reduced establishment unit This allied with the 2nd PPCLI, being alongside each other at Kapyon (Korea).
d. 4th (Commando) Bn, two coy Bn, no spt wpns.
e. 5th/7th Bn Mech Inf.
f. 6th Bn Lt Inf, its future status uncertain.
g. 8th/9th Bn in suspended animation (attempts being made to reform)
2. The Special Air Service Regiment (3 sabre sqns).

Part Time Units being:
a. The Royal Queensland Regiment, 3 Bns.
b. The Royal New South Wales Regiment, 4 Bns.
c. The Royal Victorian Regiment, 2 Bns.
d. The Royal Tasmanian Regiment, 1 Bn.
e. The Royal South Australian REgiment, 1 Bn.
f. The Royal West Australian Regiment, 2 Bns.
As can be seen these are all State (Province) based units. The Bns are all small (430 the average establishment), and have a very high turnover of personnel, limited military effectiveness.

2. 1st Commando Regiment, 2 coys, 1 each in Sydney and Melbourne, plus a signals sqn(with a large full time element).

3. Regional Force Surviellance Units.
a. Northern Australia Observor Unit (commonly known as NORFORCE) (based in Darwin, Northern Territory).
b. The Kimberley Regiment (based in West Australia)
c. The 51st Battalion, Far North Queensland Regiment.
These units have a large full time cadre and have 3 sqns/coys each. Having recently seen them at work, not overly impressed.

During the Viet Nam era, the RA Inf had nine regular bns, two Bns of the Pacific Islands Regiment (the indigenous troops of Papua New Guinea) with a large Australian component, the SASR (plus a demostration coy, and a parachute pl), 24 reserve bns of the Citizens Military Forces (as per the state regts shown above), two Cdo Coys. They were based upon National Service Men (conscripts) on two years regular service, or five years reserve service. When NS finished in Dec 1972, needless to say these units just about all vanished (let alone the rest of the Army).

The Corps Manning staff had a terrible job of moving people around to fill slots, as a single corps looking after so many units, and with a limited manpower pool of regulars to fill it. Just before I went to SVN we had a chap join 4RAR in Townsville North Queensland from Perth Western Australia, on arrival he was reposted to 3RAR in South Australia (like travelling by train from Vancouver to Halifax, then down to New Orleans) due to manning problems.

Serious discussion was given over these years to forming four regular components of the RAInf, keeping three bns with the RAR, and the three most populous states (Qld, NSW, Vict) acquiring two regular Bns each they looking after the reserve in their state and the RAR looking after the other three. Never came to anything.

Even today manning is still a problem. The regimental spirit, is still however extremly strong in the regular (slap my wrist) Bns of the RAR.

Having seen a few armies over the years, the regimental system of the British Commonwealth armies, takes a lot to beat. Especially if you look at the attempts the Americans have made over the years.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney


Jock


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Infanteer
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posted 29 June 2021 12:09      Profile for Infanteer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you ask me, its not the named regiments that make the Regimental system work, its the minimal turbulance which allows unit cohesion to strengthen.
The fact that we have the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry as opposed to the 101st division does not make our system better. A "Screaming Eagle" is just as reknowned around the world, if not more famous, than a "Patricia."
The 22nd battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force was not inferior in battle to the Regiment it spawned, the Royal 22eme Regiment.
It is the fact that in the Regimental system (ideally) that once a soldier is a "Patricia" he is always a "Patricia". He starts his training with other Patricias and starts to gain a familiarity with his fellow soldiers that is far stronger than that of brothers or lovers.
Should the government get rid of the named Regiments?
Absolutly not. These are probably one of the strongest and most traditional organizations that this country is blessed with. Abandoning them would probably send morale to the absolute bottom. Anyways, these regimental traditions (Colours, Battle Honours, Regimental Mess Affairs) are, in my opinion, one of the builders of this all important factor of cohesion (I have bored my Mother for hours explaining the Colours and individual battle honours when she comes to visit.)
Let's just make sure we focus on the right issues and not got lost arguing the wrong, nostalgic points.
If you want an excellant article on the topic, go to
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/

[ 29 June 2001: Message edited by: Infanteer ]


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